Rob Edmunds: The legacies of Roman Emperors can be varied. Vespasian, known for the Colosseum, is also more humbly associated with public toilets in Italy and France, known as Vespasiano and Vespasienne. This association arose as a result of a tax he imposed upon the collection of urine. ancientbluesky 🏺

The legacies of Roman Emperors can be varied. Vespasian, known for the Colosseum, is also more humbly associated with public toilets in Italy and France, known as Vespasiano and Vespasienne. This association arose as a result of a tax he imposed upon the collection of urine. ancientbluesky 🏺

Definitely. Pecunia non olet is a Latin saying that means "money does not stink". The phrase is ascribed to the Roman emperor Vespasian, quoted by the historian Suetonius in the Lives of the Twelve Caesars. "Vespasienne" in Montreal, Canada, 1930

Thanks Julia. I've come across that quote and story. I believe Vespasian was replying to his son and heir Titus who questioned whether this tax was a proper way to make money. I'll try to remember the Latin line. It's a good one! The vespasienne in Montreal looks like quite a solid example too.

Despite popular discontent, the tax fulfilled its purpose and replenished the state treasury.

It's a crazy thought isn't it! You would never think urine could be so lucrative for the Imperial exchequer. It's not something you can really stop doing to save money is it!

Useful for agriculture, cloth dyeing and the making of inks and early paints.

You had to get ammonia where you could find it in those times. I have a new appreciation for the intrinsic value of my urine all of a sudden!

I think it's the Restoration episode of Worst Jobs in History where they go to a period-accurate dyer and at the mention of a "secret ingredient" Tony Robinson sighs and says "If it's historical it's going to involve pee, isnt it" and he's 100% right

I learned the cloth dyeing part from Jean M. Auel and her prehistoric book series. :)

Interesting fact: the famous tax of Vespasian is not the only ridiculous and absurd payment in history. The Byzantine air tax is akin to the plot of the fairy tale about Cipollino. Or the tax on windows in Holland. And recall the Venetian shadow tax, from which the owners of street cafes suffered.

I'd not heard about the Venetian shadow tax. It sounds a very novel form of taxation, although it must have been quite onerous and unjustifiable for the poor Venetians forced to pay for their luxury shadows!

Ummm late to the party on this one… but were they collecting urine for any specific purpose?

Oh yes, the ammonia in urine had some extremely practical and valuable uses. www.smithsonianmag.com/science-natu...

From Gunpowder to Teeth Whitener: The Science Behind Historic Uses of Urinewww.smithsonianmag.com Preindustrial workers built huge industries based on the liquid's cleaning power and corrosiveness--and the staler the pee, the better

I love the lede with ‘the staler the pee the better’ 😆

So do I! Perhaps they used to store the pee in barrels like a vintage wine or whisky so it could age better and become staler!

As I recall from time spent on the N Yorkshire coast, barrels of urine from London were brought up the coast by ship to be used in processing the alum mined there and used, among other things, as a mordant (fixative) in the dyeing industry.

That's really interesting. It begs a few other questions too. Was there some kind of urine shortage in North Yorkshire or was the London variety deemed to be of a higher, more efficacious, quality? The notion of urine as a transportable commodity in itself sounds a little bizarre these days.

There’s a disused railway track running through Ravenscar and walking north along it for a short distance reveals where alum was mined. It’s a decent walk along the track in its own right, with great views of the coastline.

Now this is a piece of Roman history we really need to figure out! It was a good vintage … that pee from 117 AD!

Oh yes, 117AD was a fine year, a vintage pee harvest!

That calls for a fuller answer.

Hahaha

As far as I can remember, urine was used in leather manufacturing, so imposing a tax on it is probably made economic sense.

It was 'liquid gold' according to this article in The Smithsonian Magazine. www.smithsonianmag.com/science-natu...

From Gunpowder to Teeth Whitener: The Science Behind Historic Uses of Urinewww.smithsonianmag.com Preindustrial workers built huge industries based on the liquid's cleaning power and corrosiveness--and the staler the pee, the better

In Paris also known as les colonnes Rambuteau after the mayor of that name:

Madame Hidalgo should have an abiding legacy too. What shall it be? Les X Hidalgo?

That's one mighty fine colonnes Rambuteau! It's almost a little tower. Maybe a fair maiden could be rescued from it one day. There was no surrender to functionality in the design there at all is there. A mark of a great civilisation is the attention it gives to the most basic needs of its citizenry!

That's just taking the piss...

Ah I see what you did there! 😅

There were still vespasiennes in Paris when I was a child. In fact there may still be one or more but most have been removed. breves-histoire.fr/vestiges/ves...

La dernière vespasienne de Parisbreves-histoire.fr 19ème ou 20ème siècle

Thanks Pascal. I've not visited Paris yet but I've seen a few photos of vespasiennes there which looked abandoned with quite a bit of graffiti on them. Perhaps these have all gone too now.

Vespasienne? Never heard them called that. Always pissotiere in Toulouse.

I remember the V word being used in Paris, as well as the P one.

I don't why but it always amuses me that if you Google Duchamp, toilet comes up.

Meanwhile we French speakers honour Prefet Poubelle as bins are named after him en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%...

Eugène Poubelle - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org

Incroyable. I never knew that.

So many Pascals!

Still quite a few left in the Netherlands where they are known as "curls".

What a thing to be remembered for!

Indeed, he only had himself to blame though and perhaps he balanced it out a little with building the Colosseum which looks like it will remain his greater claim to fame.

He was just taking the piss.

He certainly was!

But he actually just meant to build a really BIG public pissoir. But builders, eh.

If they'd just have stuck with the original architect's drawing!

Every day a learning day, thank you.

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