this thread has been utterly useless at actually providing me any answers to my questions but has produced a lot of people who are not leftists and do intend to vote trying to explain it or tell me not to care, as well as a few doses of predictable condescension for being stupid enough to wonder
Leftist who intends to vote here: imo the case for not voting only makes sense if you accept certain assumptions like “the outcomes will be the same under Trump as under Biden” and “withholding votes will cause future Dem candidates to take leftist votes more seriously”, which I don’t think hold up
one of the more coherent arguments ive seen (but dont necessarily agree with) is that both are fascists and so outcomes will converge to relatively the same point (basically your first one). to me that suggests a danger in flattening both options that way, but i at least get where theyre coming from
I think the better version of this argument (which I still don’t agree with) is that democrats, while not fascist, do not resist it sufficiently to keep it from gaining footholds steadily. But I have a hard time taking this to an endpoint of no preference in this election now.
Unless like you’ve said it’s just a rejection of electoral politics generally (which I still disagree with fundamentally, but which I think is more honest in simply rejecting these questions than trying to twist them to a given answer).
This is a better version but *not resisting* because it isn't enough or whatever results in more roadblocks to self-fulfill doomsday scenarios. We are dealing with nearly 60 years of efforts to solidify minority right rule.
And generally I think we are better positioned at any point in history to talk concretely about the differences between these two candidates because *they’ve both been president*. We’ve watched not just what they said they would do, but what they’ve done.
Related question - if voting doesn't matter, why would so many GOP/MAGA strategies be about vote suppression? If voting doesn't matter, why voter ID? Why close polling places, limit early voting, etc.
Voting matters. They just don't want the Other Side (Dems) to vote so they can win.
I’ve sort of silenced myself on this recently, because I like and follow a lot of self-described leftists and I don’t want to start fights. But it’s damn frustrating when someone says voting would be “unacceptable,” but then refuses to grapple with why the consequences of that choice are acceptable.
Right. I know reducing everything to a Trolley Problem can be facile, but it’s really applicable here, and really noticeable that a lot of folks’ answer is “I don’t care how many people the trolley kills as long as I didn’t actively make a choice about any of it, even if I could have saved more.”
I think there’s a really dark sort of accelerationism among some online leftists: they think things have to get worse before they can get better. “The people will finally rise up!” because they won’t be able to tolerate it any longer. It is exceptionally tortured thinking.
Leftist who is ashamed of voting for Biden, but always votes D despite watching the dems shit themselves repeatedly. I really despise my contemporaries who condescend and saying "they don't get it." What's my excuse? I'm 50 years old and I keep filling in the circle and yet here we are.
"what's your solution then?" I'd love to vote for a candidate that actually gives a shit about the country, but I guess that's a "pony" and I'm a selfish little baby.
I want them to vote for socialist candidates and invest in mutual aid systems instead of supporting a pro-genocide candidate who is also directly responsible for the mass death of disabled people like me due to his horrific mismanagement of COVID, student loans debt, not halting evictions, etc.
Personally I plan on voting for Jill Stein or whoever the green party candidate is because they have ballot access in the most states but the bigger answer imo is vote in state and local elections and find and build community locally which will help weather the coming storm
Shitty options tho
admittedly it might've gone a bit better if i'd written the thread sober at not-5am but it really does feel like there is not a lot of interest in discussing what people would prefer as a course of action instead of voting for fucking joe biden
I know a lot of leftists wouldn't call me a leftist (I disagree but that's a whole other argument) but frankly, i haven't seen what people would prefer the course of action to be since at least 2015. It's usually been wish casting and "if we just installed the perfect form of government"
They believe voting third party will teach the Dems to nominate actual leftists. It will not. It will just demonstrate to everyone why splitting the left side coalition is suicidally stupid in huge national winner take all contests. A lesson that we apparently need to act out once every few decades.
Apologies for adding to the pile of non-vote abstainers who are explaining the vote thrower awayers to you. It's not directed at you so much as the general discourse.
I'm seeing things like "Vote for socialist candidates" as an answer. Ignoring reality is a big problem.
Biden has been unbelievably poor on Gaza. Trump would've been worse.
Trump has other potential downsides?
As a foreigner I can see this. It's clear.
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024...
There are a lot of people on both sides of the debate who are completely unwilling to engage the other side in good faith, and that really frustrates me.
Like, I fall on the side of thinking one *should* vote, but I don't think being an asshole about either stance helps convince anyone either way.
