Elizabeth Spiers: I think this piece wildly misunderstands the reason why white conservative Christians (Evangelicals in particular) need to pretend Trump is Christlike and why they’re so hateful toward women and minorities.

I think this piece wildly misunderstands the reason why white conservative Christians (Evangelicals in particular) need to pretend Trump is Christlike and why they’re so hateful toward women and minorities.

What is the point of this bizarre wishcasting www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...

They believe in a bastardized version of Christianity that’s reverse engineered from their biases. It does not teach compassion but gives them permission to judge people they don’t like and punish them for deviations from conservative norms. It has never been rooted in service to others

The proposition Liz makes, which does strike me as a wishcasting, is that these people totally reform their understanding of Christianity which they have no desire to do and won’t do.

Instead they cherry pick and misinterpret Bible verses that give them permission to harm others. When they talk about freedom, they mean freedom to do harm and control others, not individual freedom to make your own choices. If they didn’t they’d view bodily autonomy, for example, as sacrosanct.

The kind of Christianity they practice is uniquely American, socially regressive, and conflates a jingoistic and shallow Patriotism with a god ordained national destiny

It’s not Christianity in any real theological sense, and the kind of compassionate Christianity Liz talks about has zero appeal for them. It would strip them of their self righteous determination to punish others for perceived sins and would require sacrifices they don’t want to make

In their narrative they need to portray Trump as god ordained because he represents a powerful Christian nationalist state. Some Trumpists know he’s not a Christian but refer to him as a “flawed vessel” for God’s will to be done.

I don't know about this... can you point to a time in history when an explicitly Christian society lived up to these ideals? Otherwise it feels like a No True Scotsman fallacy. From the outside, it looks like internecine religious disagreement 🤷🏻‍♀️

None of the things you list make it any less Christian. Christianities have always existed in various relations to power. And compassionate Christianity is no more authentic than hegemonic, imperialistic Christianity. It's good to be disgusted by the latter, but it's still Bible-based and Christian.

The point for them is not to encourage Trump to be more Christlike, but to convince themselves that Jesus is like Trump.

“If you didn’t serve the nasty fellow, the Romans burned your house down. If you did serve him, you were called a Christian & got to burn other people’s houses down.”

Any investigation of the historical record tells you that this is wishful thinking. Calvin, Luther and Augustine are all canonically christian - not a lot of compassion evident.

Here is a description of the steps/rungs to be climbed on 'Jacob's Ladder' as per the (remarkable!!!) picture drawn by John Climacus around 570 AC: www.medievalists.net/2014/11/last...

The last wonderful thing: the icon of the Heavenly Ladder on Mount Sinai - Medievalists.netwww.medievalists.net Description and dating of the icon of the Heavenly Ladder Jacob ‘dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached toheaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descen...

Citing Christianity to justify terrible, socially regressive behavior is far from uniquely American

Yes, but the American flavor of it is unique.

Why do you think it’s uniquely American? Certainly every country’s versions of Christianity have national inflections but the use of those versions to justify violence, social hierarchy/racism and jingoism seems common.

Bunch of things. For one, there’s a prosperity narrative that conflates the American Horatio Alger myth / arc with what happens if you’re a good Christian. There’s the false notion that our nation was founded as a theocracy even though we’re a young nation and the evidence says otherwise

AFAICT from the outside, Christianity is far more politically powerful in the US (with nominal separation of church and state) than in the UK (with an established church and bishops in the HoL).

"By jingo"...."by Jesus"

Essentially, an English "inshallah" that was also used for "abracadabra" allpoetry.com/next-to-of-c...

next to of course god america i by e.e. cummingsallpoetry.com Comments & analysis: “next to of course god america i / love you land of the pilgrims’ and so forth oh

Christianity hasn't succeeded for 2000 years without being willing to bend into whatever shape people want for their own purposes. It's been many different things, and probably will continue to be all of them. They're all 'real' Christianity.

It does have some relation to 19th c. Church of England tho

Literally all Christians cherry-pick

Chrissy, have you considered that cherries are delicious so we should all cherry pick? //I apologize for that very dumb joke

I’m all for people making personal canons out of whatever passages of literature/metaphorical cherries they like; just be aware of what you’re doing 😇 Also, yes, literal cherries are delicious and I love stone fruit season

damnitall

Wilhoit’s law as ordained by god. It’s wild to see it operate IRL.

They do this and this and insist it’s obviously the only way the Bible can be interpreted; and that obviously the Bible is right from God’s mouth (Why??? How???) and that drives me insane

As do you. Sorry, but to assert that others misinterpret the Bible necessitates that you interpret it correctly. Where is the evidence for that? "Just look at what the gospels say!" And?

Mostly old testament verses, which don't even feature the teachings of Jesus

Point to the branches and leaves that interpret the bible the exact same way... I'll wait (until hell freezes over) 000024.org/religions_tr... Start about half-way down and a bit to the right-of-center [Signed by a minister/missionary kid]

World Religions Tree000024.org

It’s also illiterate in terms of how symbolic beliefs work (hint: they don’t get revised based on new information because they function as signifiers of group membership not assessments of truth, facts, or reality)

There’s nothing bastardized about it. Every Christianity is formed in a way that fits source material to community biases, inevitably. Trying to fight evangelicals by calling them hypocrites or arguing theology isn’t helpful; it’s counterproductive

Agreed. Slavery, white supremacy, gender roles were all core stuff in the Christianity I was marinated in growing up in East Tennessee. These people are being entirely internally theologically consistent. You can beat them into submission, but you can't improve their thinking.

That's the thing though. It may be true that *you* can't improve their thinking (pressure from out-group members more often tends to make people double down), but many of them do leave and change their minds, especially but not exclusively younger ones.

Because they're sold on the importance of a relationship with God, but God does not in fact interact with human beings in any discernable way. So nobody's actually experiencing that relationship, and IME a lot more of them have a nagging fear that it's all bullshit than would ever admit it out loud.

I think you're right about all that. But tribal affiliation coupled with it serving other social & socio-political agendas make it an easy thing to carry on with for folks of that dispensation. Clearly none of it makes rational sense, is internally contradictory, etc. so it ain't about reasoning.

I think the ones who are ultimately going to think it through properly and leave will do that with or without you or me arguing with them about it. I was raised in it, but I never really bought into it. Nearly everyone around me did. This is core-orientation stuff.

I've tried to explain to outsiders how Trump's philandering & lies actually make him *more* trustworthy to certain Christians bc openly sinning is the first step in building a personal relationship with the Lord, but it's hard to overcome people's innate belief that Christianity is about being good.

innate is the wrong word. Foundational is more to the point.

Reminds me of that line from a Roxane Gay novel, paraphrasing here. "Their god was hateful because they made him in their image."

That is the best way of explaining right wing North American Christianity that I’ve seen. Outstanding.

I grew up in this (and started rejecting it at a pretty young age because I was a sweet kid who followed the rules as written — and they did say to love your neighbor on paper). This is spot on.

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