Jesse Rothstein: My letter to the NYT editor. I sent it yesterday; we will see if they run it. I'll put links in this thread.

My letter to the NYT editor. I sent it yesterday; we will see if they run it. I'll put links in this thread.

Leonhardt's piece: www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/b... Kurlaender-Reber-Rothstein responding to the U. of Calif. task force report: edpolicyinca.org/newsroom/uc-... Chetty-Deming-Friedman on Ivy Plus admissions: opportunityinsights.org/paper/colleg...

The Misguided War on the SATwww.nytimes.com Colleges have fled standardized tests, on the theory that they hurt diversity. That’s not what the research shows.

Supreme Court SFFA decision: www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22p... Bennett study of test optional: journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/... Bleemer study of UC Eligibility in the Local Context: zacharybleemer.com/wp-content/u... Bleemer study of CA affirmative action ban: doi.org/10.1093/qje/...

Black-Denning-Rothstein study of Texas 10% Plan: www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=...

Winners and Losers? The Effect of Gaining and Losing Access to Selective Colleges on Education and L...www.aeaweb.org (January 2023) - We use the introduction of the Texas Top Ten Percent rule to estimate the effect of access to a selective college on graduation and earnings outcomes for two groups of students. For h...

I see Jake Vigdor had a very similar reaction, and provided a lot more detail: bsky.app/profile/davi...

This was another interesting rebuttal to Leonhart, from a stats analysis pov: x.com/jakevigdor/s...

x.com

It would be great to have you write a full on rebuttal - with evidence, counter arguments etc. I found the Leonhardt piece persuasive, but was clearly missing some of the studies and evidence you've cited.

Others have pointed to Jake Vigdor’s thread on Twitter which criticizes it as statistical work. bsky.app/profile/davi...

This was another interesting rebuttal to Leonhart, from a stats analysis pov: x.com/jakevigdor/s...

x.com

One of my colleagues and I were talking about standardized tests a few months ago and the only plus we could come up with was that doing well on the ACT was how we both paid for college. And free, or at least affordable, public education would eliminate the need for that benefit.

Also, you know: there is at least one other conclusion, besides "and therefore we need the SAT," to be drawn from noticing that a test you acknowledge to favor the wealthy and privileged is a strong predictor of success at your university. (Go Bears.)

This was another interesting rebuttal to Leonhart, from a stats analysis pov: x.com/jakevigdor/s...

x.com

Great thread. thanks. I think they might agree on more than they are letting on - SATs have some value, and ultimately all forms of selectivity end up benefiting the already-resourced, so lottery admissions might be the answer.

I'd also be curious to know just how many students below the upper middle class, in the US, have the combo of not-great HS grades and great SATs, and vice versa. I assume that elite and private HS => higher GPAs (often inflated), and grades from non-elite HS are likely to be lower overall.

I was one of those kids, & struggled mightily in college for the same reasons I underachieved in high school: ADHD/depression/lack of preparation. This was a private liberal arts college with a big endowment; I suspect similar students at most other colleges would get even less support than I did.

i too went to a pvt liberal arts college, sats were optional but i sent mine in & i bet they helped since my (public) high school grades mostly showed whether or not i liked the teacher.

I think so much of how we respond to the SAT vs grades debate has to do with our own experiences. I also did OK on SATs and in school, but felt the school grades/exams were somewhat pointless, so I am inclined to pay less heed to school grades. but I guess they do predict college success.

x.com/rothstein_je...

For those curious, this article has some good stats: www.nytimes.com/interactive/...

Seems like leondhart should've read this article from the nyt first. It's from a few years ago but really stuck with me. Explains how relying on SATs boosts admission of mediocre rich kids over outstanding applicants who need financial aid. www.nytimes.com/interactive/...

What College Admissions Offices Really Want (Published 2019)www.nytimes.com Elite schools say they’re looking for academic excellence and diversity. But their thirst for tuition revenue means that wealth trumps all.

Good job.

Thank you for writing this!

In the NYT article, I found the chart showing the strong linear relationship between sat score and attending an elite graduate school suspect. Isn’t it possible that people who are good at the SAT are just also good at the various tests used for graduate school admission?

They are also disproportionately elite and wealthy and therefore hire the best test tutors

Thanks. It’s warmed-over Charles Murray. Pro-testing quants have always ignored systemic harms. Quants have always excluded false negatives and false positives from discussions of error rates. If schools accept SAT scores, students should always have the option and guidance to use it wisely.

what number and percentage of admitted class are "athletes from obscure prep school sports." it would be helpful to have a definition of those sports

See the research I'm referencing there: opportunityinsights.org/paper/colleg...

thanks. at a glance, i see rich kids fare better. shocking! we've long known legacy admissions have been affirmative action for white kids. that's changing a bit, now that colleges are 50 years into recruiting blacks. black parents discuss legacy admissions: paw.princeton.edu/article/lega...

The Legacy of Legacypaw.princeton.edu In Princeton families, the Tiger connection often extends across generations, and many alumni, secretly or not, hope that their children will someday follow them to Princeton.

Lacrosse...... Field hockey....... Golf........

girls lacrosse and field hockey are played in all high schools i VT. Nothing fancy pants about that. Having said that, most of the Harvard women are either from prep schools or abroad. Lots of foreigners.

Schools in the NE (and now even wealthier public districts in NC) have adopted some of the sports that used to be restricted to the prep schools--Title IX also contributed to the broadening.

Ill take "hitting things with sticks for 200"

You do not mention the relatively recent STTF report at Univ. of California, which found that GPAs among student cadres predict success less well than STs, & that STs provide a path to guaranteed admission for many students from marginalized backgrounds that wouldn't exist by other measures.

See item 2 on the next skeet, which discusses that report in depth. (It is the second underlined link in the letter.) bsky.app/profile/jrot...

Leonhardt's piece: www.nytimes.com/2024/01/07/b... Kurlaender-Reber-Rothstein responding to the U. of Calif. task force report: edpolicyinca.org/newsroom/uc-... Chetty-Deming-Friedman on Ivy Plus admissions: opportunityinsights.org/paper/colleg...

The Misguided War on the SATwww.nytimes.com Colleges have fled standardized tests, on the theory that they hurt diversity. That’s not what the research shows.

Thx, didn't see that. I don't accept your claim there that the STTF report recommendations are not based upon evidence. Sect 3 of the report makes clear that the TF members evaluated the evidence extensively re the use of STs measured against UC policy goals, & evaluated predecessors' assessments.

I was a 1st gen student. I attended a lousy public school where almost none of the courses were remotely challenging. My GPA was almost perfect, but it signaled almost nothing about academic prep or achievement. The only remotely meaningful standard that admissions could evaluate me by was my SATs.

We worked with the @uchiconsortium.bsky.social to put together this explainer video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hma...

Q&A: Grades and Test Scores Videowww.youtube.com Watch this video and get more details, plus related resources from the UChicago Consortium: https://consortium.uchicago.edu/publications/q-a-gpa-and-test-sco...

Thank you for handing it to David Leonhardt

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