TQ White II: Driving is an intrinsically dangerous thing. Forty thousand fatalities out of the billions of driver miles is a really, really good outcome.

if you don't like the idea of a traffic camera snapping a photo of your car for speeding there is a very easy solution

I want some sci fi author to write the story of what happens when society is able to document and punish *every* infraction using tech. Seems like 'more law abiding' would be one result. A nightmare of fear seems like another. Perhaps also a complete hatred of authority might be another.

can someone please tell me where they have the gotten idea that they are entitled to absolute privacy while driving on public roads in their state licensed vehicles marked with unique codes traceable to the user?

I do not have an expectation of privacy. I also think that government surveillance is, a priori, bad. It should only be used where the benefit is very high. Traffic laws are not one of them. Our society worked perfectly well with traffic cops enforcing the law. Cameras are a profit making tool.

this seems like a lot of fatalities for a system that is working perfectly well www.nhtsa.gov/press-releas...

NHTSA Releases 2020 Traffic Crash Datawww.nhtsa.gov 38,824 lives were lost —highest number of fatalities since 2007

Driving is an intrinsically dangerous thing. Forty thousand fatalities out of the billions of driver miles is a really, really good outcome.

"a really, really good outcome" www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/...

Socialite gets 15 years to life for L.A. hit-and-run that killed 2 boyswww.washingtonpost.com Grossman Burn Foundation co-founder Rebecca Grossman struck Jacob Iskander, 8, and his brother Mark, 11, with her car in a Los Angeles crosswalk.

"If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that's only statistics"

This is more of it. Why would you have a 45mph speed limit in a residential area with crosswalks. that is just asking for trouble

This is it. This is the position. 42k deaths is actually totally fine, as long as a camera doesn't take a picture of me when I break the law.

"I'm a good speeder...unlike the others. I haven't killed anybody."

“Traffic deaths are not real because I personally have never killed anyone in an accident.” God’s Safest Speeder has spoken! Heed the word of the living God!

1) I have never had a moving violation in 54 years of driving. 2) Traffic deaths are real. The death rate per mile drived is insanely low. It's a price worth paying.

2) is totally false. traffic deaths in the united states are significantly higher than our peer countries even when adjusted for miles traveled

I'm surprised by this. Can you point me to a reference?

Wiki has a sortable (both per capita and per VMT) list: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipediaen.m.wikipedia.org

US death rate per VMT is substantially higher than Canada, Australia; almost double that of Germany, more than double the UK…

I stand corrected. America is 8 per billion km. Europe is 5. Jesus. We suck. L

why do you think pedestrian and cycling activists are so angry all the time? we just kinda get murdered out there at a much higher rate that most other developed countries. I personally know 3 people killed by drivers - speeding/distracted or both

30 seconds of googling (possibly less time than it took you to sealion) shows US is 6th in the world per 100mil vehicle miles

This shit is on Wikipedia. If you aren't aware that the US has a higher death rate from traffic accidents than comparable countries, you really shouldn't be arguing this point. The US has a 1.5x higher fatality rate than Canada on a per km traveled basis.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...

List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipediaen.m.wikipedia.org

Click through literally any of these charts, too. w3.unece.org/PXWeb/en/Cou...

Pedestrians killed in road traffic accidents - Data Portal - United Nations Economic Commission for Europew3.unece.org

Strongly suspect #1 is also totally false.

No why do you have to start getting personal and calling me a liar? It's just not right.

Wait, hold on — did you just say that other peoples’ *preventable* (in a way that at worst causes you a minor inconvenience) is a “price worth paying” for not having experience that inconvenience?

(“Preventable deaths”)

When the inconvenience is minor, I definitely am in favor of preventing deaths. But let's change the example a little. 5.1 million people die each year from fossil fuels. Does your enthusiasm for preventing death extend to banning automobiles completely?

Easily. I gave the practice up 20 years ago myself. And you opened your participation in this conversation by openly arguing against a minor inconvenience that is definitively demonstrated to reduce vehicular deaths, calling them “an acceptable price to pay.” Which is just sociopathy!

Yes

speeding may cause a lot of avoidable deaths, but it also helps people get to work on time, so, it's impossible to say if it should be prevented or not,

Actually a valid point. Personally, I'm in favor of reasonable efforts to control speeding.

The blood of others fuels my F-150

…look, you’re gonna have to be the one to tell the family of someone who died in a car accident that their relative’s death was a “price worth paying” to allay some vague fears of a surveillance state, ‘cause I’m not willing to do it.

But...the death rate per mile could be even lower? That's the whole point

driven

Other countries manage to have lower levels of traffic fatalities per mile driven. They do this by using speed cameras, among other tools. You’re not principled, you’re just selfish.

Take responsibility for your actions, and drive slower.

Now why do you have to start insulting me. What is the point of that? For good measure, pay attention. Elsewhere in this thread I note that I have never, ever had a moving violation. This has nothing to do with me.

Deleted that last reply bc it was more irritable than warranted. But I note “I have never been caught speeding” is not “I never speed.”

And if you don’t speed, it’s foolish to bend over backwards to excuse other people’s antisocial behavior. Traffic laws exist because driving is dangerous. Frequently more dangerous than it needs to be. Irresponsible drivers should face consequences.

In that same post, I explained that the reason I have no moving violations is that I got pulled over as a teen and hated it. I don't speed. Period. Also, I do not excuse other's behavior. This topic started as a complaint about ubiquitous government surveillance and automated law enforcement.

Equating enforcing traffic rules with “ubiquitous government surveillance” is so misleading as to be indistinguishable from a lie. Plenty of countries have speed cameras and are not dystopian hellholes.

When you average them all out it turns out way fewer teens who own guns use them on their classmates than you'd think

I cannot imagine being this deeply antisocial

i agree that reducing or eliminating driving overall is even safer but less feasible. Automated traffic cameras are proven to reduce speeds and result in safer outcomes though which is a net good thing. Especially when the downside is… there isn’t really one

Tell it to my next door neighbor who saw his wife of 5 decades get killed by an out of control speeding driver.

A life is not a number.

It’s not but some judgement has to be made if a broad social consequence is with the benefit. Eg, six million people are killed each year from fossil fuel. Would you ban all use of them to save those people? Do you ride in cars?

If there were practical, workable alternatives? Absolutely.

Is it? How does it compare to other countries?

It is not intrinsically dangerous. It is dangerous because we allow bad drivers to make it so.

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