The relationship of many American leftists to patriotism reminds me a lot of those guys who grow up in oppressively evangelical communities and decide to express their disillusionment with it by becoming black metal satanists - a oppositional mirror of Christianity - instead of becoming atheists.
Like the correct response to the realization that nationalism is a false consciousness used to suppress class conflict is to focus on raising class consciousness not to root against the nation everyone around you is rooting for.
Flag burning anti-patriotism is stupid in the exact same way that jingoistic chauvinism is stupid but it's also stupid in an additional self-defeating way because it sets your goals up in opposition to a bunch of symbols and institutions that normies have been trained their whole life to believe in.
Nations are lines someone drew on maps and flags are pieces of cloth. Made up! Don't get mad at something that's made up especially if it's also alienating people that you need to reach for no good reason!
Ya I feel sometimes like this stuff is the foreign policy equivalent of those straight edge punks who'd tattoo X's on their hands or whatever bsky.app/profile/thre...
"have you ever considered how many people in the united states see the united states flag as an irredeemable symbol of profound evil" like, yes, and the number is "extremely few" which is why setting yourself up against it is insane bsky.app/profile/nacl...
ever consider how many people look at that flag and see mammon, a beast that hates them, a monster that has killed and harmed their families? those are the people our struggle is for. blessed are the meek, jackass
in both directions: in 1854 it was totally reasonable to see the United States flag as symbolizing protection of slavery, in 1864 the same flag was flying over Union Armies as they rampaged through the south burning down plantations. I think that's neat and a good idea! bsky.app/profile/wron...
Gallup polls "are you proud to be an American" regularly and in 2023 it fell to a record low... of 89% (saying "extremely" "very" or "moderately" proud. Only 4% said "not at all")
news.gallup.com/poll/507980/...
Yes, like if you sincerely believe that most normal working class Americans hate America and find the US flag to be a symbol of colonialist oppression (not that they SHOULD believe but that they actually do) you need to go out and touch grass bsky.app/profile/walk...
Expressing my solidarity with Native Americans by offering to act as the self-appointed spokesperson for the opinions of 100% of them bsky.app/profile/mick...
One of the other commenters in this thread went on a whole thing about "have you ever worked in a restaurant? people who do the real work in this country HATE america!" and man, if you actually believe that... bsky.app/profile/cade...
Working in manual-labor public sector positions has been a massive political eye-opener for me in that I strongly resent the idea that there’s some supposed secret proletariat-primed-for-communist-revolution undercurrent. That fantasy isn’t really doing us any favors
I'm sure there's a restaurant kitchen somewhere in the country where everyone really is an anti-imperialist America hater but this was certainly not my experience working in the sector.
I work in Seattle and dear god do I hear some horrible things about homeless folks from people who are obstensibly doing the REAL work in this country.
(You’d probably hear the same things around firehouses and EMS shops and also the Parks and Recreation shop but oop I’m saying too much)
And this doesn't even have anything to do with the point you're making!
You: "Nationalism is popular"
Them: "I'm gonna need data to back that up"
You: ::presents data::
Them: "Yeah, but that's only showing that it's popular."
Yeah this is a bad take. Native Americans have a high rate of US military service, and if you go to Native events, they'll often open with a flag song and a presentation of colors by the veterans.
There are 5 Native Americans in Congress; and Native Americans are slightly overrepresented (relative to population) in the federal civilian government workforce. It's almost like people are typically very proud of being American
When you hold a simplistic binary mindset it's impossible not to assume everyone else does.
This post is based more in that than the actual words it's responding to.
Yes the fascists deciding to use a bunch of ugly desecrated versions of the American flag instead of trying to claim the actual American flag as their own is tbh a huge self-own by them bsky.app/profile/eean...
That flag always struck me as a comically literal representation of fascist dominance. You're saying you want to have a country like ours, but with all the color leached out? All the interesting parts removed to highlight a thin blue line of society?
ive made this point before but part of the reason they needed to invent a flag that looks different than the american flag is because part of its function is a legal way to signal that your business doesn't welcome black people inside and just flying a us flag doesnt work
My children asked me what that flag meant since it didn't look right. And with all patience and care I explained that it was the authoritarian flag and that they were the bad guys
youtu.be/KpN7oO7lzvw?...
This song talks about the fascists flying their blacked out rag instead of the American flag in the second verse. I think there's a wellspring of people who are disgusted with the right turning on American symbols waiting to be tapped.
Working in manual-labor public sector positions has been a massive political eye-opener for me in that I strongly resent the idea that there’s some supposed secret proletariat-primed-for-communist-revolution undercurrent. That fantasy isn’t really doing us any favors
I’m not 100% sure if this fits into the conversation, but it reminds me of my own feelings changing about the flag. Recently, I began seeing it as a sign of conservative ideals & their version of patriotism, but now I want to reclaim it, for the ideals I used to think it stood for when I was younger
I can’t explain how angry I get seeing those flags being flown by people who pretend to care so much about flag burnings & ‘patriotism’ & all that jazz
Being a socialist living in a deep red area of Pennsylvania is a constant reminder that the things I whole-heartedly believe are not universally agreed upon even on a most basic level.
This whole thread is so hilarious. You'd think these folks would be more self-aware that their views aren't popular. I thought that was part of their counter cultural appeal.
I think there's probably a subset of millennials who are old enough to remember the flag-flying jingoism of the early aughts, but at a certain point I want to say: you are middle aged now, get over that teenage righteousness
I expect that’s mostly an automatic response instead of any deep thought or questioned value the country. You Americans have patriotism as value over anything else drummed into you from birth.
The concept/meaning of rights is so so different from what I was raised with and learned. It's like stuff you want and might have but might not but if you do have it then that's a right but if you don't then lol fuck you.
It’s jumped (to 11%) since people on the far right are less proud to be Americans now that the country is beginning to deliver on its long-standing promise of equity and egalitarianism
On one hand I agree with the folks who rightfully have every reason to not feel patriotic, yet, this is the terrain we have to work on/with! Once patriotism sets in, it’s gonna be extremely hard to dislodge it
Being on these websites has a profoundly distorting effect on people’s understanding of the electorate, you ask some of these “Marxists” what that number is they’d guess like 20%
