Roxane Gay: Also interesting to see free speech framed as the right to speak without fear of being shamed or shunned. You should fear shame for being a bigot.

Also interesting to see free speech framed as the right to speak without fear of being shamed or shunned. You should fear shame for being a bigot.

Apparently saying "shame on you!" is not an act of speech.

Exactamento. When the ACLU supported the Nazis' right to march in Skokie, they didn't say: "And don't dare shame or shun them." They have the right to speak. Others have the right to react.

Indeed, the traditional argument “the answer to bad speech is more speech” is precisely based on saying “Nazis are bad and you should feel bad about being Nazis” in place of prohibiting Nazi speech.

I read the NYT's editorial today, and the shaming and shunning quote isn't in there.

It was an older editorial

The @nytimes.com jumped the shark a long time ago, but now they are simply co-conspirators in a conservative project in liberal drag. And I like drag. But not like this.

They've always been like this I have no idea how they got the reputation of being "liberal"

bsky.app/profile/ygal...

Obligatory xkcd

Of course, bringing back the right (privilege) of a certain subset of people to speak without fear of being shamed or shunned is part of how Republicans want to Make America Great Again.

*offer not valid for anyone who disagrees with bigots or any who are someone they hate.

Shaming/teasing is an early response to antisocial behavior, and can be effective at curbing destructive people. It’s a low-stakes approach that keeps things from escalating. You aren’t supposed to like it

Which side are supposed to be the snowflakes and which side are the "f*ck your feelings" crowd again?

So absolutely right on ✊🏼

“Marketplace of ideas” except if your idea is that a raging bigot should be told your opinion of him. 🤦‍♀️

It's funny that the NYT is shaming and shunning anyone who dares to shame and shun.

remember when Richard Spencer got bullied out of his gym for being, well, a nazi.

The right wing fascists want the right to say anything without consequences. So I told one stupid soldier to call his CO an asshole and claim free speech.

It is so preposterous that it took the entire nyt editorial board to come up with the Wint, "yelling at me makes my opions worse" tweet. It is also the same whine as comedians who claim woke means they can't tell jokes. You definitely can, but it does not mean anyone has to laugh.

It’s a complete reversal of how “free speech” is supposed to work.

I've spent years of my life hearing the words "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences" only for the same people saying that to start crying when anyone tells their side to shut up

The dream of every reactionary centrist is for a White man to be able to go on an absolutely unhinged racist tirade in public and have the broader culture not agree with it, but respect it as a legitimate opinion.

'Reactionary centrist' interesting concept.

I didn't come up with the concept by any means. Try googling it.

From what I've read so far it looks like the definition of the concept depends on whether you follow the Huertas or Chait line. Ultimately, to me, it's as clear as mud, another political theory to throw on the pile & waste productive time arguing over. Moving on...

Just the first time I've seen it. It stuck out like a pin in my eye. I suppose violently middle of the road must be a thing somewhere.

U TOOB needs to hear this Lady. They have PROTECTED racist accounts.

Yeah, the whole "Free Speech Absolutist" thing neatly pretends that power/platform/privilege doesn't squash the free=speech of some already. I've never heard a free speech bro stand up for underprivileged groups (well except "their own 🙄)

Would the NYT prefer we talk about it behind its back? At the parties we don't invite it to?

The risk of being shamed or shunned is what makes it all work! If people aren't shamed or shunned for terrible, offensive ideas, why would those ideas stop being propagated?

I made this! Lol

A decent working definition of Americanism is the seamless, uninterrupted right to never feel shame or be gainsaid. There’s a paradox (one need be capable of feeling shame to be shamed), so maybe it’s the fantasy of never being put in question, including (in some avoidant wishcasting) internally.

Amen. Reading this, I find myself thinking of the Medal of Freedom Tr*mp gave Rush Limbaugh, essentially for providing the future Tr*mp base with such a powerful role model for public, shameless, unreconstructed bigotry.

They fear being shamed or shunned. We fear being beaten by cops and imprisoned.

Don't know the context of this, but yeah, free speech goes both ways and a lot of the apparent proponents of it don't like it when it's directed back at them.

No tolerance for the intolerant IMO

This. The absence of moral language those frameworks is intentional and glaring.

A white member of my former UU church said he's gets attack when he says racist shit...and clutches his pesrls..other members said they're tired of feeling shamed when the minister brings up white supremacy well duh?.

I'm also sure that's how NYT runs their newsroom, no criticism of any employee, never shaming no firing, bc that's definitely shunning.

that's the problem--they want to be and support bigots and have nobody complain at them about the bigotry that plus they're still really mad the peasants can talk back now

Basically that means free speech for me and shut up or the boot for thee. Shaming and shunning are speech.

- Free speech also applies to the right to criticise. - Free speech also applies to the victims of bigotry attacks.

100%

@caffeinehusky.bsky.social Democrats learn that anything less than unconditional support for Israel will be met by charges abandonment & antisemitism. So dems abandon 207 encampmemts But it's not feasible to unconditionally support Israel in current trajectory. prada.substack.com/p/convert-20...

Convert 207 Encampments to [Real] Votes for Presidential Electionprada.substack.com When Jennifer Koonings and multiple volunteers in NY state campaigning about LEAVE IT BLANK [in other states, with other name ‘UNCOMMITTED’], and we know NY is 2nd largest home for Jewish in universe ...

They want to cancel shame.

Amen. It makes no sense to me how they don't see their own hypocrisy when claiming otherwise.

I remember when people were careful not to be racist in public, mixed company or anywhere there could be consequences. I’m not naive enough to think society was ever “not racist” but openly being an ignorant ass used to get you in serious trouble, not more podcast subscribers.

It has been played as 'the right to speak without consequence' which is not the same as 'free speech'. Your opinions may not be against the law, but they are also not above scrutiny. Say what you like but don't expect all of it to be mutely accepted, you're not dictating a letter.

This is another activity that use to be normal, people who add racist or bigoted either keeping it to themselves or being shamed or shunned. Praising Hitler, for example. No more. Now it is considered abnormal to criticize the racist or bigot. GOP has worked on this since 1980, now owns SCOTUS.

who gets to decide?

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