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Your regular reminder that I personally loathe Noam Chomsky for the reprehensible things he said in apologia for the Khmer Rouge - and has never really taken back. He was no friend to the Cambodian people. (Not to mention his stance on Ukraine).

Makes me sad that folks on the left like him, ngl.

It does indicate someone who perhaps has not done nearly as much research as they like to think they have

It's a bit funny because how quick the left usually is to cut people loose for failing purity tests, but there's always the few who manage to get into the state of grace where the test must be wrong.

Tbh the left is pretty fucking awful at enforcing the “supporting Russia/genocides committed by vaguely leftist seeming countries” purity test nowadays

If your leftism isn't fundamentally centered on the idea of human dignity and freedom as universal and immutable values of everyone, frankly, what is the fucking point of your philosophy.

I have had leftists screaming at me about Gaza who seem to have not one care about what Putin is doing in Ukraine.

Yeah, it’s maddening. The Ukraine people who don’t give a shit about Gaza are also maddening, though there seem to be less of them here.

But far as I can tell most of the Ukrainians and pro Ukraine people I know are pretty horrified by the Gaza situation too

There's some (justified) resentment that folks in the West pay less attention to atrocities against Ukraine, or use their struggle as some kind of sterile talking point to argue against US hypocrisy on it (which, to be clear, is real). But the general consensus is still "this is /also/ horrendous"

it was nice to see Zelensky come out clearly on that the other day, just as an additional counterpoint to the weirdos determined to make it some kind of contest

the ukrainian government has been pretty consistent on this since 2014

Exactly. I guess atrocities committed by Putin don't count.

There are an awful lot of leftists who swallowed hook, line and sinker the whole “Ukrainians are Nazis” propaganda. (Which is like saying Americans are Nazis because we have Northern Idaho and various compounds in other states.)

Every western country has a Nazi problem these days. Ukraine would be no different.

Zelenski himself is pro Israel though, which I find baffling.

And Israel has barely lifted a finger to aid Ukraine.

Yes, exactly.

Netanyahu likes to keep his options open for if the US ever gets tired of his bullshit.

He's Jewish from a country that has pretty bad antisemitism in his (recent) lifetime. He's fighting a war against a country that has alliances with Iran, including munitions used to target civilians. He's also been vocal about need for humanitarian aid in Gaza and respect for international law.

A lot of tankie can't reconcile those contradictions.

I think he's in a no-win scenario in this regard - his popularity in the West, which is giving him weapons, strongly supports Israel so he feels he needs to toe the line although there was a recent comment where he urged Israel to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza

Yep. He is absolutely in a very delicate and incredibly tough position.

He also would be considered a right-winger, in general, by US standards. We don't have to agree with him on much, imo, in order to appreciate his determined defense of his nation. I think Ukraine'd be better off with someone else in almost any other time. But he is clearly the man for this moment.

He has specifically mentioned Gaza several times in speeches and directly said that Israel should respect international law. (press conference, Singapore, June 2) He has friends and family in Israel so there was an emotional impact on 10/7 but he's never condoned their disproportional response.

Not very common on here but very pervasive in Washington DC including up to the highest office

So I gather. Ghouls.

100%

Have definitely seen both

The ones who blow my mind are pro Ukraine but also pro leveling hospitals in Gaza. There’s more than a few on here and they never really go into the morals of it

Those Ukraine people don't include the president. Ukraine officially recognizes the Palestinian state. Which, of course, would get the Ukrainian president thrown out of Columbia or NYU, if he proclaimed it.

Well, even if they don't do that some accuse the UN and red cross of kidnapping people into Russia. This is because post cold war Ukrainians are unaware Russians have no qualms impersonating noncombatants. In 1956 they used ambulances to transport soldiers and kidnap people

The Red Army, it turns out, was ever thus, but because they were allies against the Nazis, the knowledge about their way of war was suppressed.

Until Churchill sponsored the white book. Stalin's response was so swift that the movie battle of Berlin had to be hastily rewritten to paint the western allies in cahoots with the Nazis from the start to try and discredit the Katyn massacre among other things.

The worst are the ones who think we should just leave Ukraine to its fate for Putin to do with as he pleases because they're "pacifists".

Orwell said it best

Or to put it more succinctly, if their pacifism were remotely principled, it would be in full-throated opposition to the invasion of Ukraine, and that Ukraine should receive any and all resources necessary to unwind the Russian war of conquest back to its pre-war boundaries.

As someone who tends towards pacifism, I think Orwell was spot on. And you are right about the support and defense of Ukraine. Turn the other cheek doesn’t have to be sit by and get murdered. Principled pacifists should always defend others, with force if necessary. Just don’t start wars. It’s easy.

Indeed. It very hard to fathom how an “anti-imperialist” can support Putin war of imperial conquest

I think it's best to start thinking of pacifist as another term for 'collaborator'.

Where is this Orwell quote from? The more things change . . . etc.

From his Notes on Nationalism (which is great and everyone should read it) www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-f...

Notes on Nationalism | The Orwell Foundationwww.orwellfoundation.com "By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled...

Thank you. My eldest has read Homage to Catalonia multiple times. I think it is her favorite book, so what that means I do not know.

this is great!

That essay was such an eye opener on getting aburdly hung up on other people’s struggles. Not reacting on oppression, but picking some cause in a faraway country and obsess about it.

Wow that was fantastic. Amazing dunk on Chesterton, too.

cowards.

Like, I'm largely opposed to war and violence on general principal, but I certainly wouldn't just let someone steamroll me if it somehow came down to me or them.

Nobody is actually opposed to violence, when it comes down to it, if that violence is necessary to secure their own liberty. These intellectual pacifists just don't believe that /other/ people should be supported in a fight for liberty, because their own principles are not rooted in liberty.

Part of the reluctance of the European powers to confront Hitler in the prewar years was due to their memories of the horrors of twenty years before, but Hitler didn't give them the option to remain pacifists.

I think some Quakers might manage pacifism even when their own liberty is threatened, but I don't think those account for many of the pro-Russian "pacifists" I hear.

"Violence is never called for" weak. "Violence isn't called for." Stronger.